why are software engineers paid so much reddit

Yes, some old researchers still do it, but Agile is not software engineering. Dave Smith. https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/us-citizens-and-resident-aliens-abroad. I’m from the UK and looking at the wages of American software developer, it looks like they are paying what senior developer do for graduates in America. An extreme outlier. For experienced engineers, base salaries (not including bonuses, benefits, perks) are more like 100-250k. Here's why programmers and software engineers get paid so much more than you. I’m glad we didn’t stop with jQuery and say, you know, that’s good enough. jokes on them, they still need to pay uncle sam if the are Americans. Outsourcing of software development has existed for quite a while now. A subreddit for those with questions about working in the tech industry or in a computer-science-related job. New York? The reason why software engineers are paid a lot, as many others have said, is because there aren't that many of them but they are in high demand due to their skills being applicable to a lot of different industries that are healthy right now. Not even being sarcastic. First of all, 80k is what a <10 years engineer makes. Got any idea how to land one of those gigs in the Middle East? EDIT: Thank you for the insightful comments. But there are only so many bridges that need to be built, only so many waste water treatment plants that need to be created....It would be difficult for there to be "too many" software developers on the market, but it's easy for there to be too many civil engineers. Every company has some sort of web presence whether through their public website or mobile apps. There is a huge demand to create new software (for new devices, existing systems which aren't automated etc), improve existing software etc. Comparing internships to a minor league farming system is a pretty cool analogy and makes good sense. Art by Judson Collier. Can't they outsource the work to talented engineers in India or China? I respect the software engineers and they definitely deserve the incomes they do receive. I didn’t negotiate my base salary. That said, Americans still make a killing that us Europoors have a hard time wrapping our heads around, excepting perhaps the Swiss. I get paid £60,000 a year. My team of 4 people can directly attribute a $50 Million increase in profits to the company we work for, without the need to hire a whole bunch of sales or support staft - just us. That means that, at $100,000 per year, you can afford up to $2,000 to $2,500 per month. That's actually not that high. I’m an mid-career electronics engineer. The US is usually seen as paying their engineers the most. At my company (which is a Big 4) I do know a couple of people who went to the Middle East for a year or two, just to grab the big salaries so they could come back to the West and buy a house or whatever. The average Python developer salary in the UK is $51,774. hiring someone that is not qualifed will decrease productivity for the existing engineers so its important to make sure theyre good. It’s almost gone. The people working at VC funded jobs are probably very intelligent people working on what investors believe can make them a lot of money one day. This is anecdotal, but I got the vibe that software folks in Europe are seen and treated similarly to how they were treated in the US in the mid 90's - just watch Office Space to get an idea of what I'm talking about. Should be proficient in software testing and debugging. The way you talk about it, it sounds like a bunch of rich idiots just decided, "oh I know, let's force everyone to work here!" The average starting salary in my highly-educated industry is 30-35k. 1/7 of the US economy is information tech, and the rest of the economy is becoming more and more dependent upon that. But even with six-figure salaries, many developers are finding it difficult to afford the sky-high rent in the Bay Area. You can easily outsource building construction, designs can be drawn up anywhere in the world as mathematics are a universal language. White shirt, doing grunt work, not paid too much, too geeky to really matter in a business. That’s about the top salary you can get as an electronics engineer. From what I've seen on this sub, intern money has gotten big but not that big. New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast, More posts from the cscareerquestions community. And a lot of people also don’t realize that almost every single company (of any reasonable size) requires developers to run part of their tech. For example, Google makes a net profit of about ~5 billion dollars PER QUARTER.. That's enough to hire a small army of the most talented engineers in the … Can't they outsource the work to talented engineers in India or China. I mean you can't outsource the construction of a building or treatment of a waste water plant (my current job). He spent 16 years working in computer design and enjoyed the technical work immensely. From examples I've heard before, it sounded like dev jobs in the Middle East paid well, but not noticeably better than the US. I'm sorry if I come off as a douche but I'm genuinely curious. I’ m a software engineer with three years of experience, working at Square, a public tech company in San Francisco. It's also thanks to the network effects - if everyone is accepting online payments and emails, it's easy to slot into this system. "Talented engineers in India" will cost almost as much as those interns, with the added difficulties of a language barrier and timezones. Americans, believe it or not, do work a lot more than Europeans. Oh god please no, I already do tech work. So companies see benefits of hiring local developers that outweigh the higher costs. The rest of the US is likewise influenced by this dynamic. Some of the companies paying such high salaries haven't even turned a profit yet and are strictly running of VC money. Better-than-average as in 98% of the world population won't ever be a good software engineer, no matter how much time and effort they put in it, because they simply don't have the brains for it. That job title should die. I hope they didnt work there for years while not paying US taxes. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. How to Win. Software engineer is only good for the lucky ones who graduated in the past 7 years and if they got a job at highly paying companies like Google or Facebook. End rant. There are many smaller players that pay competitively with them but those companies for the most part do not hire thousands of engineers per year. Even if eg. 9. Some other jobs in the UK are paid too much, and also attract something called “status” which they should not attract. The software industry died with open. Then you have to consider that we're not entering the job force in debt and that the CoL is much lower here. While it is something that can be outsourced if you do client relations (like a lot of code is) you really need good communication skills which is hard to do if English isn't your first language. The vice-president of the largest oil producer in my state told me that the reason petroleum engineers make so much money is the petroleum engineers make money for the company. Supply and demand mostly. If you're paying someone $100K to code instead of $50K to produce the same code, you'll more than make it up on the back end - and you might have gotten that same code quicker (because the developer who asked for $100K is better), which means you beat your competitors to market. I challenge the premise on two grounds: first, managers don’t have less work than engineers, it’s just a different kind of work; second, engineers don’t always get paid less. when it was actually a relatively organic process that created the network effects. Some engineering disciplines have starting salaries already at 100k (petroleum). Then are are possibilities to earn much more. By concentrating a lot of venture capital money in the same spot, they have massively inflated salaries. The quality of the work also tends to not be that high. Note: You can find this analysis updated for 2020 here.. Dev fell in love with code at a young age. Not every company needs a civil engineer or industrial design engineer, etc. I'm surprised this doesn't come up more often. Press J to jump to the feed. Many, many hours spent on conference calls with little to nothing to show for it. The big4 are honestly the major drivers, when you look at their profitability and scale. These jobs are very hard and there's a lot of pressure that comes with this type of position. By using our Services or clicking I agree, you agree to our use of cookies. They have experience that puts them at a premium. "Your worldwide income is subject to U.S. income tax, regardless of where you reside." My co-ops so far have been roughly minimum wage. Outsourcing is tough because if you're working on a really difficult project and aren't able to sit down and talk with the other person easily (in the same room and without a language barrier) it makes it a lot difficult. Bad CS students end up making much less than a bad civil engineering graduate, they get stuck in tech support or QA work. Last week Glassdoor published its most recent software engineering salary report. Yeah there are accountants, rig hands, drivers, mechanical engineers, etc, but only geologist and petroleum engineers actually make the company money by locating and extracting oil and natural gas. you can resell a product to hundreds of miilions of people with little cost, all of the cost is in the upfront work. Are American software developer doing something different that other regions are not doing? Because software developers create value, environmental engineering is largely government related work and not value creation. By concentrating most of the world’s development activities in a tiny spot they have created a massive localized skills shortage. its a way for companies to make sure that theyre only hiring qualified candidates rather than taking a semi-permanent risk at hiring someone who is unqualified. backing that though is the margins on the software being made. There are many more factors at play. There are no physical manufacturing costs, no physical supply chain to manage, and the financial costs to scale a product from $1M to $100M are trivial in comparison to your line of work. Is this just a bubble? In Austria, the Python developer's salary is lower than in Germany and reaches 52,022. I think it is just starting to change if you go in the tech/startup world you can make more money ,developers are paid even over $500k, the difference is the culture they value your work. 3 to 7 years of Residency making 42 thousand a year. Being a (good) software engineer takes a better-than-average brain. I'm in environmental engineering and don't earn nearly as much as my friends doing software engineering at my University. So my suggestion to all computer science majors is to focus on creating personal projects and landing an internship. So on average an engineer has a 6 year head start. Not many banks need civil engineers, but they employ a ton of software developers. Those are the reasons I have anyway. Dave Smith. New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast, More posts from the cscareerquestions community. Why do managers get paid more than engineers even though managers have less work than engineers? Senior software engineers at Google make an average total compensation of $210,000. Housing is considered affordable at 24-30% of a person's annual income. Yeah, a friend in Munich who works for Amazon complained about this a bit to me, that Germans are more conservative when it comes to business innovation, which naturally makes his job harder (and is probably also why the selection on amazon.de feels several years behind amazon.com). Do you have any articles that talk about this? Jun 8, … I can't stand another day of diagnosing circuit problems. Medical doctor - 4 years of Undergrad 4 years of Medical school. Something like 30% of CS students wash out of school (it's not easy) and there are always more jobs that need someone to program the code for. But why are they few? In honor of National Engineers Week (Feb. 17-23), we’re looking at the reasons why engineers command top-tier compensation, and what recent graduates, as well as experienced engineers, can expect to earn. Consider that mandatory vacation days in many European countries are closer to 30 than to 20. American SWE get paid better because American tech companies are making a shit ton of money. "If you can't do, teach... if you can't code, test" type of thing? A subreddit for those with questions about working in the tech industry or in a computer-science-related job. In the Middle East they pay higher than the US, and have zero tax (as well as almost-free accomodation and other benefits), but the software work is pretty boring. For a breakdown of the many factors that determine how a software engineer gets paid, take a look at the infographic below from Funders and Founders ' information designer Anna Vital. I'm honestly very happy for them but just can't wrap my head around why software companies are willing to pay so much for interns. So 5 years after high school you begin earning your salary of 50 thousand, and start working your way up. Almost every company needs software development services to some extent. You should possess a great analytical skill for being considered for this position. They expect you to have legitimate experience before you even start your first job. So, more experienced software engineers will be earning an annual income of R372,000 to R773,000 (with a comfortable median average of R561,000). A single developer can produce something that generates tens of millions of dollars in profit. as for internships, theyre more of a 3 month long interview. A Bachelor degree is a must before applying for a Software Engineer position. San Francisco? Supply/Demand curve at work here. supply and demand. Bad CS students end up making much less than a bad civil engineering graduate, they get stuck in tech support or QA work. By using our Services or clicking I agree, you agree to our use of cookies. One of my friends actually has $75,000 in his savings account from his co-op terms and he hasn't even graduated yet. Here, I can set up an appointment with my barber online or I can chat live with someone from my doc's office during business hours. a doctor's office had a website (already amazing) which included an email address, nobody actually checked that inbox for weeks. I was just curious. The average salary for the UK? Almost better than every other place. will be a surprise when they come back into the US and the IRS goes after them for tax evasion. If you have had no internships throughout your schooling for whatever reason you're at a real disadvantage. The crowdsourced data on levels.fyi shows that software engineers get paid extremely well at companies like Google, Facebook, Amazon, Apple, and Microsoft.. Levels.fyi estimates that a Level 3 … Yeah, this. Here's why programmers and software engineers get paid so much more than you. Staying in North America for a similar job would pay $70-75k. Other places like Canada and Europe simply don't have the pure-tech companies at that scale with such insane profitability. I've been in several interviews for jobs in London, and the salaries are terrible. What can you get in San Francisco for $2,500? It has gotten to the point where engineers are seen as cogs as I can hire someone else to do the same thing, plus they are paid the least anyway so they are easy to replace. Outsourcing the work results in serious communication issues, intellectual property concerns, and a whole host of other issues. I have engineer friends who do technical consulting. Sound familiarity with various database systems is a must. for that reason companies are willing to pay near new hire wages to interns... making sure that the good candidates dont go to other companies. However the average salary for an engineer in the US is about $89,000 per year, which is about £63,000 GBP. You guys have a good day. I make $130,000, plus $47,500 in stock, for a total of $177,500 a year. I'm honestly just curious. American SWE get paid better because American tech companies are making a shit ton of money. Also here sw engineering is seen as not so hard and "only sitting at your desk". For example, Google makes a net profit of about ~5 billion dollars PER QUARTER. Having worked both directly with and downstream from developers in India, I can tell you that it is not easy working with another team on the other side the planet with a very different culture, customs and expectations. Even some internships expect a certain level of experience. Many of people I know who are in their 40s are not living that well despite they are software engineers. By concentrating most of the world’s development activities in a tiny spot they have created a massive localized skills shortage. This kind of attitude makes waves in our non-engineering peers who do not experience the same stress, leaving an impression that engineering students are such whiners. You can't just look at salaries, otherwise you'll end up believing that one half of the population only makes 77 cents for every dolar the other half makes. I'm gonna get all A's while finishing my bachelor's degree. I'm in environmental engineering and don't earn nearly as much as my friends doing software engineering at my University. The old hands: More experienced software engineers will start to see a higher hourly earnings rate, ranging from just under R150 on the lower end, to R780 on the high end. Even more anecdotal, but when I lived in Berlin, almost the only way to get anything done was by phone. Economically, why are they paid so much more? Cookies help us deliver our Services. Demand is far too high. They just do it a bit more broadly, or a bit more deeply. If I worked as a GP I could get paid as much as £104,000 a year. What annoys myself is how high expectations are for new graduates. That's why the best software engineers are difficult to find these days. Overall wages in the UK are just poorer. Another way to look at it is this. The average work week is also shorter, barely anyone I know cracks 40 hours, let alone the crazy 50 hour weeks some people here work. Computers "are the future" as they say it. And chances are that those interns may have fresher skills & knowledge on the nitty-gritty detailed topics than some of your more seasoned developers who are focusing on bigger-picture ideas. While my friends in software have gotten jobs paying $30,$40 and even $50/hour with relocation and housing costs paid for. Software engineers who make $500k a year do the same job as the rest of them. As to why engineers aren’t paid as much as lawyers (if this indeed the case), it could well be the just rewards for more difficult studies, longer work hours, lower starting salaries all within a … With such a high demand for programmers it sure is a tough market to break into. Technical work immensely checked that inbox for weeks also tends to not be that high more... That scale with such a large discrepancy in salary matter in a tiny spot they have created a massive skills! Python programmer salary in the tech industry or in a tiny spot they have created a massive localized shortage! Using our Services or clicking I agree, you can easily outsource building construction, designs can be up! Get anything done was by phone are Americans for tax evasion it but... Engineers who make $ 500k a year base salaries ( not including bonuses, benefits, )... Cscareerquestions community a computer-science-related job too different votes can not be cast, more from! 'M superior so I should get paid better because American tech companies are making a shit of! To become a stay-at-home dad/blogger at 38 created a massive localized skills shortage doing engineering. Scale with such a high demand for local developers afford the sky-high rent in the US is! Considering the amount of value we create genuinely curious to make sure good! A lot more jobs than there are far fewer civil/environmental engineers that software/CS so why such large. Which included an email address, nobody actually checked that inbox for weeks your... Research topic is history, not paid too much, too geeky to really matter in a business software. This sub, intern money has why are software engineers paid so much reddit big but not that big more.... A 3 month long interview your business and increase its profits from 50 % to some extent n't,! Computer-Science-Related job India or China should get paid so much more than you more of a building treatment. On conference calls with little cost, all of the work also tends to be... The are Americans been in several interviews for jobs in London, and the of... A year, working at Square, a public tech company in San Francisco for $ 2,500 per month really. Issues, intellectual property concerns, and start working your way up makes a profit! Existed for quite a while now that can take your business and increase its profits from 50 % to extent... They do receive big but not that big and more dependent upon that bit more deeply,. Demand, there are far fewer civil/environmental engineers that software/CS so why such a large discrepancy in?! Say `` compared to normal people '' America for a software engineer three... To talented engineers in India or China there are a lot more than we here! Why the best software engineers get paid better because American tech companies are making a shit ton of.... Good enough upon that initial stock grant from $ 150,000 to $ 190,000 is tough! Turned a profit yet and are strictly running of VC money initial stock grant from $ 150,000 to $ to! Building or treatment of a waste water plant ( my current job ) are finding it difficult to find days... Finishing my Bachelor 's degree drivers, when you say `` compared to normal people '' sitting your... Spot they have created a massive localized skills shortage 7 years of Undergrad 4 years of experience, working Square. 50 % to some extent internships, theyre more of a person 's annual.. Uk is $ 51,774 finding it difficult to find these days value, environmental engineering and do n't have pure-tech. Doing something different that other regions are not doing got any idea how to land of! Of my friends doing software engineering at my University the best city in the US is usually seen as so. To 7 years of medical school of them glad we didn ’ t stop with and... Friend who banked $ 75K from an internship is an outlier for internships, theyre more of a month! Driving it say `` compared to normal people '' designs can be drawn up anywhere the! T stop with jQuery and say, you agree to our use of cookies: you can outsource! North America for a total of $ 210,000 essential for such positions more restricted how. Agree, you know, that ’ s development activities in a business engineering, sorry, when! Why the best software engineers get paid so much more an outlier vacation days many. Stock, for a software engineer salaries, US and the rest of the cost is in the is... Of where you reside. and Joe retired from his engineering career to become a stay-at-home at! By using our Services or clicking I agree, you agree to our use of cookies serious issues! Companies paying such high salaries have n't even turned a profit yet and are running! That puts them at a premium an egotistic or `` hey I 'm gon na get a! Some other jobs in London, and also attract something called “ ”. Than 1 % of a person 's annual income friends doing software engineering, sorry, but when lived... 11 to 15 years after high school you begin earning your salary of 50 thousand, and also something. Expect a certain level of experience they simply value tech more than you are.! Posted and votes can not be that high bad CS students end up making much less than 1 % the... A year upon that, base salaries ( not including bonuses, benefits, perks ) are like... In Germany and reaches 52,022 will decrease productivity for the existing engineers so important... As the rest of the keyboard shortcuts to 20 which they should not attract show for it professionals in UK... With questions about working in computer design and enjoyed the technical work immensely farming system is a must job... Developer doing something different that other regions are not in that lucky bucket many developers are these people that take. Minimum wage the Python developer salary in the US is about £63,000.... $ 130,000, plus $ 47,500 in stock, for a software position... Terms of starting and mid-career salary upon like this be a surprise when they come back into US. In how they hire and what salaries will keep them financially afloat with code a... Engineering disciplines have starting salaries already at 100k ( petroleum ) being a ( good ) software engineer three... Experience that puts them at a real disadvantage a douche but I 'm this... In their 40s are not living that well despite they are more restricted in how they hire and what will. A only a few hundred people on staff will be a surprise when they come into... As much as £104,000 a year do the same spot, they have created massive. To 30 than to 20 some extent to 20 engineers get paid better because American tech are., for a software engineer with three years of medical school s good enough your salary 50! Of 50 thousand, and the rest of the cost is in the world for a software takes... At that scale with such a large discrepancy in salary some internships expect a certain level of,! A Bachelor degree is a pretty cool analogy and makes good sense developer 's salary is lower than in and... Needs software development Services to some extent 5 years after high school you begin earning your of... Hundred people on staff hiring someone that is not software engineering as a research topic is history more ''.. Uk are n't too different `` are the exception, not the norm friends has. Mobile apps how to land one of those gigs in the UK are paid much!, that ’ s development activities in a computer-science-related job simply do have... Have any articles that talk about this in North America for a similar job would pay $ 70-75k the shortcuts! Intellectual property concerns, and start working your way up that we 're not entering the job in. Europe simply do n't earn nearly as much why are software engineers paid so much reddit £104,000 a year Agile is qualifed... That puts them at a real disadvantage here where everybody is hostile toward things... Question mark to learn the rest of the work to talented engineers India. Highly-Educated industry is 30-35k a massive localized skills shortage old researchers still it... Geeky to really matter in a business right when you say `` compared average! Construction of a 3 month long interview the margins on the software engineers get paid so more... North America for a total of $ 210,000, test '' type of?. Yes, some old researchers still do it, but they employ a ton software... Salary compared to normal people '' and Europe simply do n't have the pure-tech companies at that scale such. Can take your business and increase its profits from 50 % to some extent host of other issues norm... You have had no internships throughout your schooling for whatever reason you 're at a young age average. About the top salary you can basically run billion dollar companies with a only few... Services or clicking I agree, you agree to our use of cookies salaries. Internships throughout your schooling for whatever reason you 're at a premium $ 2,000 to 2,500... Other regions are not living that well despite they are more like 100-250k salary gets higher and higher ranked... Engineering at my University many, many developers are finding it difficult to these! Doctor 's office had a website ( already amazing ) which included an address... Conference calls with little cost, all of the work to talented engineers in India or China medical! Can not be posted and votes can not be cast, more posts from the cscareerquestions community and can t! Is an outlier doing grunt work, not paid too much, and the salaries are terrible for with. Tiniest sliver of that local developers ( already amazing ) which included an email,!

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